howie
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Post by howie on Mar 19, 2024 14:00:21 GMT -8
Can I safely assume that those who accept the (plausibly) notion that both Jeter and Posada are in the running as the worst defenders ever at their positions give extra credit for Yankees starting pitchers in that era?
BBTF had a poster named "pastadivingJeter" because team announcers routinely uttered that phrase (well, it sounded like that), and those unapprehended grounders counted as hits, not errors.
I never got around to trademarking the "gracefully slow" phrase I coined for DJ......
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kcgard2
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Post by kcgard2 on Mar 19, 2024 15:53:18 GMT -8
Can I safely assume that those who accept the (plausibly) notion that both Jeter and Posada are in the running as the worst defenders ever at their positions give extra credit for Yankees starting pitchers in that era?
BBTF had a poster named "pastadivingJeter" because team announcers routinely uttered that phrase (well, it sounded like that), and those unapprehended grounders counted as hits, not errors.
I never got around to trademarking the "gracefully slow" phrase I coined for DJ......
Who would this plausibly make a difference for? David Wells, perhaps? I did give a small boost to Pettitte for it, Clemens has absolutely no need and Cone is also already in. If someone has David Wells in their top 40-ish players, a boost could conceivably put him near the top 20 and thus on ballot, given that his four years as a Yankee were pretty good years. I don't think Javier Vazquez's two Yankees seasons were of high enough quality that any boost is gonna do anything for his case. Orlando Hernandez would need a *humongous* boost from some kind of MLE. So I think this amounts to David Wells?
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Post by chriscobb on Mar 19, 2024 16:12:20 GMT -8
This isn't an argument for or against WAR 2.0, but one of my first impressions is that its results seem more in line with common wisdom among non-stat nerds than other existing WARs. Pie Traynor as one of the best 3Bs of the early 20th century, Joe Dimaggio as an all-time great even before war credit, Steve Garvey closer to the Hall line, a bunch of dubious HOFers (Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice, Nellie Fox, Rabbit Maranville) looking more credible, Buster Posey as an easy choice, Adrian Beltre as a great but not necessarily an inner-circle great, Kenny Lofton a good player but below the Hall line, Brett Gardner down, Ryan Howard up, etc. I'm not sure if this is about the RISP component or what, but all of this would have the typical non-stathead nodding along. But of course there are exceptions (Ken Griffey Jr. being the biggest), and it's entirely possible I've imagined this pattern altogether. Alex, unless you've gone looking at cases beyond the lists provided, I think the pattern you are seesing is probably a result of the fact that Bleedthefreak's lists are showing us all the divergences from BBRef WAR, so all the cases where WAR 2.0 agrees with BBRef against the common wisdom are not included in the documentation. It's also harder to document how much a numerical finding disagrees with a general impression of quality.
Another intriguing but predictable pattern appears in bleed's documentation of the changes in WAR values for all the players that got votes in the 2024 election. It's interesting that in over 2/3 of the cases, nWAR 2.0 assigns these players less WAR than BBRef WAR does. If we are looking at a lot of players that are very similar in value, the ones that are getting a bump in value from the vagaries of the most popular rating system are the ones who are most likely to show up on the ballot. If their small advantage over other players is due in part to a vagary in the rating system, then a different rating system is likely not to give them that bump but will send it to other players. The players the new system would bump up--not having been overrated by the old system--will not have been getting votes. And thus we find that most of the players getting votes in 2024 would see their values decline if nWAR 2.0 were added into the rating mix.
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Post by herrdoktorchaleeko on Mar 19, 2024 16:29:27 GMT -8
Can I safely assume that those who accept the (plausibly) notion that both Jeter and Posada are in the running as the worst defenders ever at their positions give extra credit for Yankees starting pitchers in that era?
BBTF had a poster named "pastadivingJeter" because team announcers routinely uttered that phrase (well, it sounded like that), and those unapprehended grounders counted as hits, not errors.
I never got around to trademarking the "gracefully slow" phrase I coined for DJ......
You’re unfairly forgetting Bernie Williams who was a horror show by Rfield after his age-26 season. Mike Emeigh back on BBTF many times posited that the Yankees had intentionally shifted their defenders in such a way that unintentionally made their defensive stats look awful. Not sure I ever believed it because every single defensive system ever that wasn’t created by Jeter partisans showed Jeter as a terrifying defense presence in the worst possible way.
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nate
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Post by nate on Mar 19, 2024 16:55:41 GMT -8
I think also, while I'm sure nWAR has areas where it produces some weirdness, or it's less close to the truth than bWAR (or fWAR, or whatever), that those probably stand out more because the system is new. bWAR, or fWAR or any system that's been out for a while, also, most likely, have areas or players where they doesn't produce results that are as accurate as they ideally should be, but we've either learned to work around them (19th century pitchers, for instance, in the case of bWAR), or just come to assume they are the truth, because we've gotten used to these systems and find them broadly accurate.
Which isn't to assert that I think nWAR is just as accurate as bWAR or fWAR... I really don't know if it is or not. Just that I think it's natural, and not necessarily wrong, to put the new system under a bit of a microscope. But if bWAR was released today, in 2024, after we had been using, I don't know, Win Shares or WARP all this time, we'd probably be pretty skeptical of the areas where it diverges from those other systems too.
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Post by herrdoktorchaleeko on Mar 21, 2024 5:09:40 GMT -8
The Jeter talk reminds me of a theoretical question.
Let’s say we had this fictional team: C Posada 1B: Dunn 2B: L Doyle 3B: D Allen SS: Jeter RF: Sheffield CF: Bernie LF: Luzinski DH: D Ortiz Average pitching
So you have this amazing offense and the worst defense imaginable. Would there be a negative synergy defensively that would make it worse than than we’d expect. Would it be enough to offset the offense?
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kcgard2
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Post by kcgard2 on Mar 21, 2024 13:26:53 GMT -8
In a league of 4.5 R/G, I think this team gives up nearly 6 R/G if they play in an average ballpark. I think you should specify "old Bernie" in CF, since he was not bad in his younger days. It's hard to think of a downright bad CF while he was still in his prime. Shin-Soo Choo was awfully damn bad, but he was 30 when Cinci tried him in CF. It's prolly the closest I can think of.
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ericj
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Post by ericj on Mar 21, 2024 13:35:13 GMT -8
It would partly depend on the nature of the average pitching - one of the drawbacks of bad fielding is that it makes your best pitchers face extra hitters and thus get pulled sooner. If "average pitching" means "endless supply of average pitchers," this is mitigated; if it means "reasonably normal distribution of pitching talent" then it's a problem.
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Post by chriscobb on Mar 21, 2024 15:55:17 GMT -8
This theoretical question actually has (as Dr. Chaleeko may be implying) a practical application for nWAR 2.0. Its fielding assessments are based on defensive efficiency. If a team's defensive efficiency is more than or less than the sum of its parts due to synergistic effects, then it might be a less reliable measure of individual fielding quality than measures derived from fielding characteristics that have less interplayer entanglement built into them.
For the all-bad defensive team, I might suggest Alfonso Soriano at second base rather than Larry Doyle, although Doyle was the better hitter, so maybe he has a more appropriate profile for this team than Soriano does.
Also, if this was the squad, would it make sense to put Ortiz and first and DH Dunn? I suppose it depends quite a bit on what part of their career you are looking at. A young Adam Dunn would be serviceable at first base. Ortiz was always below average defensively, but he appears to have still been capable of managing the position on an interim basis even quite late in his career, whereas Dunn became epically bad on the field later in his career. If the goal were offensive fireworks, Frank Thomas could be swapped in for Dunn at first.
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kcgard2
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Post by kcgard2 on Mar 22, 2024 13:13:19 GMT -8
Konerko was also wonderfully statuesque at 1B. We have a ton of options there.
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 23, 2024 18:01:17 GMT -8
Furtado posted a comment about a baseball-related tweet a mere 2 days ago.
but two decades of BBTF? we can go screw ourselves, sucks to be us, I guess.
what person who has risen to the level of a rather public figure would ever want to disgrace themselves like this? it's truly bizarre.
as I wrote pages ago, I would rather have praised him for quite a bit, and also accepted that his time to depart has come.
but he made this bed, and now he gets to lie in it....
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alex02
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Post by alex02 on Mar 26, 2024 11:23:08 GMT -8
Maybe this belongs in a different thread, but I thought it'd be interesting to track some of the 2024 storylines with implications future HOM induction.
Some to watch:
- Paul Goldschmidt, Manny Machado, Nolan Arenado and Freddie Freeman could all retire today and probably have strong HOM cases, but how many of them can add to their cases enough to make things easy for us?
- Jose Altuve needs two or three more good years to enter that territory but is up there in age. Can he deliver another prime-type season?
- Will Marcus Semien remain among the best players in baseball, setting himself up for possible future induction?
- Jose Ramirez, Bryce Harper, Aaron Judge and Francisco Lindor seem like solid HOM bets assuming they don't suddenly fall off... Will any of them suddenly fall off?
- Christian Yelich quietly recaptured some form last year. Can he repeat or improve on it enough to look like a future HOM candidate?
- Carlos Correa put up 40 WAR before age 30 but still doesn't feel like a lock for 20 more. What kind of year will he have?
- Giancarlo Stanton and Andrew McCuthchen appear basically done and are seemingly short of HOM status. Does either have a last gasp?
- Will Chris Sale stay healthy and effective enough that he again looks like a likely future HOMer?
- Will Jacob deGrom return, and does he have enough left in him to boost his counting stats into clear HOM territory?
- Will Gerrit Cole get healthy and return to his usual production, or will he fall off the HOM track he appears to be on?
- Will Joey Votto and/or Zack Greinke play in the Majors this year, setting back their eligibility a year, or will one or both join Miguel Cabrera to form a very strong ballot in five years?
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kcgard2
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Post by kcgard2 on Mar 26, 2024 13:31:35 GMT -8
Didn't Joey Votto sign with the Blue Jays? I was a die-hard Reds fan for 20 years and now I don't even watch MLB anymore, lol.
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Post by dlfrommn on Mar 26, 2024 13:42:36 GMT -8
If Gerrit Cole doesn't get healthy then this generation might not have any Hall of Fame pitchers. The next candidate younger than him is Nola and he's 10 WAR behind. Wheeler, Gausman, Snell and Castillo seem certain to fall short. Alcantara is hurt.
I also wonder if Chris Sale can extend his career long enough to get the career value he needs.
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Post by bleedthefreak on Mar 26, 2024 13:47:04 GMT -8
Didn't Joey Votto sign with the Blue Jays? I was a die-hard Reds fan for 20 years and now I don't even watch MLB anymore, lol. He did sign with the Blue Jays on a minor league deal. And start watching games again if you can, the new rules have injected some excellent action into the game. And if not, definitely listen to radio broadcasts
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Post by bleedthefreak on Mar 26, 2024 13:48:29 GMT -8
If Gerrit Cole doesn't get healthy then this generation might not have any Hall of Fame pitchers. The next candidate younger than him is Nola and he's 10 WAR behind. Wheeler, Gausman, Snell and Castillo seem certain to fall short. Alcantara is hurt. I also wonder if Chris Sale can extend his career long enough to get the career value he needs. They may not be the same generation, but an all-star type year from deGrom or Sale could get us two real candidates. But agree, it's Cole and no man's land. The shift of innings to additional relievers is destroying pitching candidates.
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Post by bleedthefreak on Mar 26, 2024 13:51:43 GMT -8
Maybe this belongs in a different thread, but I thought it'd be interesting to track some of the 2024 storylines with implications future HOM induction. Some to watch: - Paul Goldschmidt, Manny Machado, Nolan Arenado and Freddie Freeman could all retire today and probably have strong HOM cases, but how many of them can add to their cases enough to make things easy for us? - Jose Altuve needs two or three more good years to enter that territory but is up there in age. Can he deliver another prime-type season? - Will Marcus Semien remain among the best players in baseball, setting himself up for possible future induction? - Jose Ramirez, Bryce Harper, Aaron Judge and Francisco Lindor seem like solid HOM bets assuming they don't suddenly fall off... Will any of them suddenly fall off? - Christian Yelich quietly recaptured some form last year. Can he repeat or improve on it enough to look like a future HOM candidate? - Carlos Correa put up 40 WAR before age 30 but still doesn't feel like a lock for 20 more. What kind of year will he have? - Giancarlo Stanton and Andrew McCuthchen appear basically done and are seemingly short of HOM status. Does either have a last gasp? - Will Chris Sale stay healthy and effective enough that he again looks like a likely future HOMer? - Will Jacob deGrom return, and does he have enough left in him to boost his counting stats into clear HOM territory? - Will Gerrit Cole get healthy and return to his usual production, or will he fall off the HOM track he appears to be on? - Will Joey Votto and/or Zack Greinke play in the Majors this year, setting back their eligibility a year, or will one or both join Miguel Cabrera to form a very strong ballot in five years? The 2020 COVID year, and no expansion since 1998 is hurting some WAR totals to where I already like some guys for the hall. I'd put in Altuve, Ramirez, Harper, Judge, Lindor, and Ohtani today if they didn't play again. Adding bulk prime seasons would be nice to make it an easy decision though. Correa is a DRS BR darling, it doesn't stand out from the SS crowd with FG, Thress, or WAR 2.0. I have him fallen behind Trea Turner, and possibly Seager/Boegarts.
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Post by bleedthefreak on Mar 26, 2024 14:10:14 GMT -8
Check that, Lindor is probably really close, but shy. JT Realmuto might fall here depending on how you handle D, his falloff last year is hopefully not a sign of impending doom.
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Post by chriscobb on Mar 26, 2024 16:02:28 GMT -8
"I'd put in Altuve, Ramirez, Harper, Judge, Lindor, and Ohtani today if they didn't play again."
Like bleedthefreak, I also see a lot of these players as already above the in-out line. The long period without expansion seems clearly to be lowering the WAR totals of the top players relative to the expansion era.
In addition to the players Alex02 already has presented as ready to go in, I have (like bleed) Altuve, Ramirez, Harper, Judge, and Lindor. To those five I would also add DeGrom and McCutchen, but not (yet) Ohtani.
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 26, 2024 18:06:59 GMT -8
agree that it was remarkable how much better the MLB product was last year.
I DVR almost everything, then zip through 60-minute programs in about 43 minutes (after a bit, you start to gain instincts on which in the block of commercials is last).
(longest commercial block I have seen is late in the guilty-watch "Bar Rescue" episodes. at the point where they are about to show you the renovation - and often new name - of the bar, it's an incredible 5+ minutes of commercials before they return. can you imagine being like 80 years old and just watching slack-jawed as you waste 5 minutes watching lame commercials?)
did same with MLB games, but last year I was struck by how much less "dead time" there was. I no longer bothered to "zip" a bit after every pitch, as the time saved was barely worth the effort (still did it after third outs, of course).
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kcgard2
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Post by kcgard2 on Mar 27, 2024 12:48:02 GMT -8
I did watch 1 Padres game last year - the new rules are amazing (ghost runner aside), as well as being 15 years too late (as baseball usually is on such things). Unfortunately, Reds ownership, TV/blackout/cable/streaming fights, MLB's recalcitrance, pace of play, demise of the SP, COVID, economic imbalance and the existence of leech franchises, "rebuilding" and "payroll flexibility," and the utter nonsense going on with the HOF just managed to kill my love of the sport over the course of a decade. Woe is me and so forth.
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Post by bleedthefreak on Mar 27, 2024 14:38:51 GMT -8
I did watch 1 Padres game last year - the new rules are amazing (ghost runner aside), as well as being 15 years too late (as baseball usually is on such things). Unfortunately, Reds ownership, TV/blackout/cable/streaming fights, MLB's recalcitrance, pace of play, demise of the SP, COVID, economic imbalance and the existence of leech franchises, "rebuilding" and "payroll flexibility," and the utter nonsense going on with the HOF just managed to kill my love of the sport over the course of a decade. Woe is me and so forth. Any pro sports that you continue to follow? I think other leagues might not have the same issues, some overlap, but some have other problems worse than MLB. Just curious and thanks!
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kcgard2
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Post by kcgard2 on Mar 28, 2024 13:57:47 GMT -8
I follow the NBA primarily. It's not perfect, but IMO by far the best league at adapting when the sport gets out of balance. I don't expect to get much backing on a board devoted to the nerdiest of in depth baseball analysis XD. Naturally, I was a passionate MLB fan for 27 years before my ultimate falling out. Who knows about the future. The rule changes were unadulterated good but there are still big league-level issues. I'm also down on college sports (never was a huge fan, but I might be 100% out on them now). Casual fan of tennis for what that's worth. You know how people have midlife crises? I think I'm having one of those in relation to sports in general.
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Post by bleedthefreak on Mar 28, 2024 18:21:55 GMT -8
I follow the NBA primarily. It's not perfect, but IMO by far the best league at adapting when the sport gets out of balance. I don't expect to get much backing on a board devoted to the nerdiest of in depth baseball analysis XD. Naturally, I was a passionate MLB fan for 27 years before my ultimate falling out. Who knows about the future. The rule changes were unadulterated good but there are still big league-level issues. I'm also down on college sports (never was a huge fan, but I might be 100% out on them now). Casual fan of tennis for what that's worth. You know how people have midlife crises? I think I'm having one of those in relation to sports in general. Interesting on the NBA, when the first lockout happened/Jordan retired, my interest waned significantly, I barely follow the league anymore, besides some of the playoffs. The regular season seems like a slog, with significant load management, and with worse tanking issues and competitive balance than MLB. It could be considered a feature with the NBA having such concentration of value in its stars, but I prefer the whole team nature of a 26 man roster requiring valuable contributions from so many players in order for team success. I think the athleticism in the NBA is a marvel, i just don't think the game itself is often compelling enough to follow. I've always enjoyed college basketball, though i wonder if NIL will begin to change that...being able to see smaller schools, or teams with veterans walk away with victories against higher touted, more inexperienced squads, ala this year's Kentucky is a fun one.
MLB has it's challenges too, I'm concerned about how pitching is handled, there isn't a HOF level pitcher after Gerrit Cole, is that a problem, or is it cool that some many pitchers contribute to team success now? Knowing starters used to carry much larger workloads while succeeding at high levels, it makes me yearn for the older days here, it feels as if the pendulum has now swung too far. How John Fisher is running the Oakland Athletics is a problem, Oakland can be a good baseball town, but ownership hasn't done it's part, the pending move to Las Vegas could be a major flop. On the plus side, with no expansion since 1998, the quality of play feels like it's strong, with it being difficult for position players to accrue high war seasons. The rules changes have brought back an increase in stolen bases, and with the success rate being so strong, we should see this climb further...steals are exciting to me, this is a huge win. The pitch clock has removed so much dead time, the crispness of play is back and a joy.
Elite athletes in the biggest moments I think is always compelling, ala tennis and golf stars in major tournaments, though I don't love those sports enough to follow them closely otherwise.
I hope you pull through the crisis and find joy with baseball, it doesn't have to be with MLB, can just be with our discussions here, playing, coaching, following local teams, etc. I will say that I'm not nearly the diehard of when I was younger, partially due to adult responsibilities, but also for finding greater joy and appreciation from other things, most notably music, nothing beats a live concert.
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Post by bleedthefreak on Mar 28, 2024 18:51:12 GMT -8
One additional note on NBA / MLB.
I could be mistaken, but officiating feels like it has a greater impact and is more subjective on the NBA. MLB isn't perfect, robo umps on the future could help, but it's ahead of what fans of the NBA deal with?
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 28, 2024 19:42:43 GMT -8
I covered the NBA for all of the 1990s, so it greatly amuses me that the new generation is now obsessed with that era.
(and would be even more if they knew that we were the last who quite literally had front-row seats - center court or literally right under the basket - and how that made the reporting so much more compelling. watch the game and wonder why the technical foul? we literally could hear the ref-player conversation and let you know the answer. 1990s, timeout at MSG, right by the Bulls bench. a NYC leatherlung fanatic screams at MJ during a timeout, "Michael, you're torturing us - maybe give us a tiny little break, one time? PLEEEEEASE !"
MJ hears it in the timeout huddle, spots the fan, looks him with those dead eyes of his, laughs, sticks out his tongue, then shakes his head in the negative. the fan literally wails in anguish - and MJ cackles. and the beatings continued.)
Do I watch the NBA anymore? Honestly, no. I would have no issue with "load management" - first pitched by the tone-deaf Spurs coach - if the teams that employ it aggressively offered full refunds, including travel costs, to fans who got burned by the scam. they don't, of course. that makes it a bad product, imo.
Jordan played all 82 games 9 times, plus 81 and 80. he played all 82 in his final, age-39-season.
if you bought tickets for your kid that maybe you couldn't afford but you wanted that kid to see an all-time legend - he played, and averaged 37 minutes per game.
I know the league, and the players. which is why I both understand why there is a new attitude - and not why the NBA is so arrogant as to not mandate for such fans a full refund if a healthy player sits out.
you can't have it both ways.
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kcgard2
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Post by kcgard2 on Mar 29, 2024 11:31:29 GMT -8
Load management is unfortunate for the NBA, but MLB has its own slightly watered down version with SPs and the bullpen shuttles. The big names are still going to play at least 80-90% of the games barring injury, but yeah I get that it's not ideal. My bigger complaint is actually that they've tilted the rules slightly too far in favor of offense. Officiating is most difficult in basketball (college hardly even tries to keep the appearance of level officiating). I think the NBA officiates remarkably well. I still find joy in baseball mainly through HOM discussion. I also play fantasy baseball in a very competitive league, so I still keep up, but not like I used to. I feel like probably almost all of us started this stuff as college kids who all prolly have families and kids now. And there's no doubt that changes the calculus whether we want it to or not. I think it would be fairer for the load management issue: if a team is going to sit a healthy player, they have to announce it at least 2 weeks in advance. Something, I'm not gonna solve the whole issue right now, but there's some middle ground there somewhere.
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Post by bleedthefreak on Apr 11, 2024 14:52:50 GMT -8
Finally did an exhaustive download of war 2.0. DISCLAIMER: I've tried to go through with a fine tooth comb or brain on guys with the same name, some of the BR totals may include more than 1 player. If anyone would like a copy of the spreadsheet, message me here or in PM and I can send to an email, etc. Roughly 28k lines in an Excel document. Including players with 30 or more b-r or baseball projection war...
Hitters gaining 3 or more war:
2.0 1.0 Diff Name 79.5 55.6 23.94 Max Carey 56.1 38.7 17.38 Pie Traynor 39.1 26.1 13.02 Mike Scioscia 91.0 79.1 11.89 Joe DiMaggio 49.7 38.0 11.66 Steve Garvey 70.7 59.5 11.17 Mike Piazza 60.4 49.5 10.92 Nellie Fox 103.6 92.8 10.82 Al Kaline 69.4 58.7 10.72 Darrell Evans 79.8 69.4 10.42 Tim Raines 58.4 48.0 10.38 Kiki Cuyler 89.5 79.2 10.26 Pete Rose 65.8 56.0 9.80 Freddie Freeman 34.4 24.7 9.72 Michael Young 37.2 27.5 9.70 Randy Winn 53.6 44.1 9.51 Rabbit Maranville 81.3 71.8 9.47 Frankie Frisch 165.3 156.1 9.18 Willie Mays 54.0 44.8 9.16 Buster Posey 137.5 128.6 8.94 Stan Musial 69.4 60.5 8.86 Gary Sheffield 48.9 40.1 8.81 Dave Parker 48.6 39.8 8.80 George Burns OF 37.9 29.2 8.71 Jayson Werth 81.7 73.1 8.65 Jim Thome 37.0 28.4 8.63 Terry Pendleton 38.7 30.3 8.44 Bobby Bonilla 62.6 54.2 8.36 Sam Rice 63.3 55.2 8.10 Joe Mauer 119.2 111.2 8.05 Rickey Henderson 51.0 43.0 7.97 Tony Oliva 115.1 107.3 7.85 Frank Robinson 76.0 68.3 7.68 Al Simmons 32.3 24.8 7.46 Mike Lowell 77.5 70.1 7.37 Gary Carter 106.9 99.7 7.17 Joe Morgan 67.5 60.4 7.09 Jim Edmonds 57.0 49.9 7.07 Dave Bancroft 149.8 143.0 6.82 Hank Aaron 51.0 44.2 6.80 Steve Finley 70.9 64.2 6.72 Dave Winfield 40.9 34.2 6.70 Elvis Andrus 64.2 57.6 6.60 Enos Slaughter 47.1 40.6 6.53 Tim Salmon 77.0 70.5 6.50 Barry Larkin 60.2 53.8 6.45 Ron Cey 48.5 42.1 6.40 Nelson Cruz 35.9 29.7 6.24 Javy Lopez 36.2 30.1 6.07 Joe Kuhel 39.5 33.4 6.06 Ken Caminiti 37.9 32.0 5.88 Corey Seager 63.4 57.6 5.84 Willie Stargell 38.6 32.8 5.80 Anthony Rendon 33.6 27.8 5.77 Garry Templeton 36.6 30.9 5.75 Hunter Pence 83.1 77.4 5.75 Robin Yount 34.7 29.0 5.66 Red Rolfe 48.0 42.4 5.63 Lenny Dykstra 35.1 29.6 5.49 Marquis Grissom 73.8 68.4 5.38 Carlton Fisk 44.2 38.9 5.30 Paul O'Neill 31.5 26.2 5.28 Johnny Hopp 34.1 28.9 5.22 Matt Carpenter 51.5 46.4 5.11 Mark Grace 30.5 25.4 5.10 Joe Rudi 58.1 53.1 5.02 Jack Clark 37.4 32.4 4.98 Edgar Renteria 42.1 37.1 4.96 Jay Bell 38.1 33.3 4.84 Dwayne Murphy 38.3 33.5 4.78 Dom DiMaggio 40.8 36.1 4.72 Eric Davis 30.4 25.7 4.72 Garret Anderson 43.2 38.5 4.71 Tim Wallach 32.7 28.0 4.70 Del Crandall 48.3 43.6 4.68 Al Oliver 54.4 49.7 4.66 Brett Butler 74.7 70.1 4.59 Scott Rolen 167.2 162.8 4.43 Barry Bonds 71.5 67.1 4.40 Miguel Cabrera 38.9 34.5 4.36 Derrek Lee 114.6 110.2 4.36 Mickey Mantle 49.7 45.4 4.28 Roger Peckinpaugh 46.5 42.3 4.25 Felipe Alou 50.9 46.7 4.22 Mike Cameron 35.8 31.6 4.16 Jose Valentin 43.8 39.7 4.10 Boog Powell 46.9 42.8 4.09 Amos Otis 32.6 28.5 4.06 Elmer Valo 67.2 63.2 4.05 Lou Boudreau 36.3 32.3 4.02 Al Rosen 38.6 34.6 4.00 Carl Furillo 32.3 28.3 3.99 Bob Watson 30.2 26.3 3.92 Bill Bruton 46.0 42.1 3.89 Phil Rizzuto 59.3 55.5 3.85 Jeff Kent 55.8 52.0 3.83 Luis Gonzalez 38.9 35.1 3.79 Ron Fairly 40.3 36.5 3.79 Justin Turner 36.4 32.6 3.77 Adam Jones 33.0 29.3 3.73 Ray Chapman 43.6 39.9 3.72 Moises Alou 36.4 32.7 3.66 Ross Youngs 68.4 64.8 3.60 Mookie Betts 38.6 35.1 3.55 Eddie Yost 53.7 50.2 3.50 Jose Altuve 39.0 35.5 3.50 Alex Bregman 45.4 41.9 3.49 Curt Flood 48.0 44.5 3.48 Rocky Colavito 92.1 88.6 3.48 George Brett 32.2 28.8 3.44 Edgardo Alfonzo 38.2 34.8 3.40 Jimmie Dykes 68.8 65.4 3.36 Craig Biggio 33.1 29.8 3.32 Lloyd Waner 35.3 32.0 3.31 Brian McCann 33.7 30.4 3.29 Jhonny Peralta 57.6 54.3 3.26 Jose Cruz 32.4 29.2 3.25 Kevin Mitchell 47.6 44.4 3.24 Carlos Delgado 61.1 57.9 3.23 Bobby Bonds 73.8 70.6 3.20 Alan Trammell 60.4 57.2 3.17 Billy Herman 31.6 28.4 3.17 Don Baylor 61.9 58.7 3.17 Dick Allen 88.3 85.3 3.05 Chipper Jones 67.8 64.8 3.03 Joe Cronin
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Post by bleedthefreak on Apr 11, 2024 14:58:51 GMT -8
Hitters losing 3 or more war: 2.0 1.0 Diff Name 108.3 127.1 (18.81) Rogers Hornsby 76.9 93.5 (16.60) Adrian Beltre 33.0 48.0 (15.01) Wally Schang 29.5 44.3 (14.83) Brett Gardner 55.1 68.4 (13.30) Kenny Lofton 29.6 42.7 (13.08) Jorge Posada 58.9 71.9 (12.97) Rafael Palmeiro 104.6 117.5 (12.93) Alex Rodriguez 24.7 37.3 (12.56) Andrelton Simmons 72.0 83.8 (11.84) Ken Griffey Jr. 56.8 68.4 (11.61) Edgar Martinez 40.5 51.9 (11.40) Dustin Pedroia 61.9 72.2 (10.29) Harry Heilmann 26.3 36.6 (10.25) Bill Mazeroski 34.6 44.6 (10.00) Chuck Knoblauch 20.5 30.1 (9.61) Trevor Story 29.5 39.1 (9.59) Rico Petrocelli 24.8 33.8 (9.03) Tony Cuccinello 32.0 41.0 (8.95) Mark Belanger 26.3 35.2 (8.90) Kevin Kiermaier 29.0 37.9 (8.87) Starling Marte 29.9 38.5 (8.63) Lonnie Smith 24.4 33.0 (8.57) Salvador Perez 38.7 47.3 (8.55) Devon White 64.2 72.7 (8.54) Larry Walker 30.3 38.7 (8.41) Hack Wilson 83.0 91.4 (8.40) Wade Boggs 26.8 35.0 (8.20) George Burns 1B 40.1 48.0 (7.88) Ralph Kiner 58.1 65.9 (7.80) Duke Snider 39.4 47.2 (7.75) Curtis Granderson 57.1 64.8 (7.74) Andre Dawson 28.9 36.6 (7.70) George Scott 38.1 45.8 (7.69) Edd Roush 27.3 35.0 (7.67) Brady Anderson 67.6 75.1 (7.53) Johnny Bench 38.1 45.6 (7.48) Omar Vizquel 40.8 48.1 (7.30) Heinie Manush 34.9 42.2 (7.29) Darryl Strawberry 48.4 55.6 (7.23) Chet Lemon 61.5 68.7 (7.21) Ivan Rodriguez 54.7 61.8 (7.05) Todd Helton 27.4 34.4 (6.99) Travis Fryman 41.1 48.0 (6.92) Bobby Veach 31.8 38.7 (6.88) Juan Gonzalez 44.7 51.4 (6.71) Bobby Doerr 50.2 56.8 (6.57) Larry Doby 35.5 42.0 (6.49) Harlond Clift 46.2 52.6 (6.40) Fred McGriff 29.2 35.6 (6.39) Tommy Holmes 39.4 45.6 (6.21) Del Pratt 176.4 182.6 (6.20) Babe Ruth 23.8 30.0 (6.16) J.D. Martinez 31.5 37.6 (6.05) Dick McAuliffe 45.6 51.6 (6.00) Earl Averill 62.0 67.9 (5.94) Graig Nettles 90.0 95.9 (5.92) Cal Ripken Jr. 50.5 56.3 (5.83) Johnny Damon 60.6 66.3 (5.71) Buddy Bell 31.7 37.4 (5.69) Cy Williams 35.5 41.2 (5.66) Jack Fournier 33.0 38.5 (5.51) Lorenzo Cain 41.2 46.7 (5.48) Chuck Klein 32.8 38.3 (5.46) Sid Gordon 44.7 50.2 (5.46) Fred Lynn 34.1 39.5 (5.44) Babe Herman 32.3 37.7 (5.41) Paul Blair 28.2 33.6 (5.39) Nick Markakis 38.8 44.2 (5.35) Travis Jackson 35.6 40.9 (5.33) Carlos Correa 50.8 56.1 (5.27) Robin Ventura 26.8 32.1 (5.26) Bobby Murcer 45.8 50.9 (5.14) Bob Elliott 65.0 70.1 (5.10) Carlos Beltran 31.7 36.8 (5.07) Garry Maddox 59.6 64.5 (4.94) Chase Utley 29.0 33.8 (4.83) Robby Thompson 33.4 38.2 (4.81) Bill Madlock 34.8 39.5 (4.74) Lance Parrish 56.8 61.5 (4.72) Sal Bando 48.4 53.1 (4.68) Bert Campaneris 27.1 31.7 (4.58) Andres Galarraga 45.2 49.8 (4.57) Ellis Burks 37.2 41.7 (4.50) Marcus Semien 36.2 40.7 (4.48) Jason Heyward 58.3 62.8 (4.45) Ken Boyer 46.5 50.9 (4.41) Tony Phillips 46.7 51.1 (4.40) Brian Giles 40.4 44.8 (4.39) Bill Freehan 27.5 31.9 (4.37) Marty Marion 40.4 44.7 (4.31) Jim Gilliam 51.1 55.4 (4.30) Gabby Hartnett 92.2 96.5 (4.30) Carl Yastrzemski 36.2 40.5 (4.28) Jim Sundberg 29.0 33.3 (4.27) Elbie Fletcher 32.5 36.8 (4.25) Andy Pafko 34.7 38.8 (4.14) Magglio Ordonez 34.1 38.2 (4.12) Chili Davis 32.7 36.8 (4.11) Dick Groat 56.3 60.4 (4.08) Harmon Killebrew 28.5 32.5 (4.03) John Valentin 63.7 67.7 (4.02) Ernie Banks 117.9 121.8 (3.89) Ted Williams 66.7 70.6 (3.89) Johnny Mize 50.5 54.4 (3.85) Nolan Arenado 32.7 36.5 (3.82) Wally Moses 26.6 30.4 (3.80) Gary Matthews 47.8 51.5 (3.72) Brian Downing 51.2 54.9 (3.72) George Sisler 63.5 67.2 (3.67) Dwight Evans 52.2 55.8 (3.61) Luis Aparicio 34.0 37.6 (3.56) Lu Blue 41.5 45.0 (3.51) Earle Combs 27.0 30.4 (3.44) Cecil Travis 45.3 48.7 (3.44) Jim Fregosi 41.1 44.5 (3.40) Troy Tulowitzki 38.3 41.7 (3.37) Jason Kendall 36.3 39.6 (3.34) Anthony Rizzo 30.7 34.0 (3.30) Ken McMullen 32.9 36.2 (3.29) George Springer 107.6 110.9 (3.28) Mel Ott 73.6 76.9 (3.27) Ozzie Smith 41.6 44.9 (3.25) J.D. Drew 52.1 55.3 (3.20) David Ortiz 43.3 46.5 (3.20) Dale Murphy 75.2 78.4 (3.18) Brooks Robinson 29.5 32.7 (3.16) Mickey Rivers 78.1 81.2 (3.13) Rod Carew 64.8 67.9 (3.11) Ryne Sandberg 28.6 31.6 (3.03) Rudy York
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Post by bleedthefreak on Apr 11, 2024 15:01:59 GMT -8
Pitchers gaining 3 or more war:
Pitch Hit 2.0 Tot 1.0 Tot Diff Player 82.3 3.5 85.8 68.5 17.35 Carl Hubbell 34.3 7.2 41.5 28.6 12.90 Lew Burdette 49.7 (1.0) 48.7 36.0 12.67 Paul Derringer 54.4 3.2 57.6 45.5 12.14 Herb Pennock 74.3 6.5 80.8 69.0 11.84 John Smoltz 44.5 8.3 52.8 41.2 11.63 Claude Osteen 53.1 (0.7) 52.4 40.9 11.54 Bob Friend 62.7 5.6 68.3 57.0 11.32 Whitey Ford 70.5 2.3 72.8 61.6 11.22 Tommy John 97.7 13.4 111.1 100.0 11.06 Warren Spahn 31.0 (1.0) 30.0 19.1 10.94 John Burkett 112.3 5.1 117.4 106.6 10.84 Greg Maddux 44.8 8.1 52.9 42.7 10.21 Sad Sam Jones 49.7 (0.9) 48.8 38.7 10.15 Lefty Gomez 90.3 9.9 100.2 90.2 10.00 Steve Carlton 73.3 3.3 76.6 66.7 9.89 Don Sutton 48.4 6.0 54.4 44.9 9.48 Adam Wainwright 85.9 12.7 98.6 89.2 9.40 Bob Gibson 29.2 2.1 31.3 22.1 9.18 Jesse Barnes 32.4 (1.5) 30.9 21.9 8.99 Bob Veale 70.5 1.9 72.4 63.5 8.92 Bob Feller 27.9 9.1 37.0 28.1 8.86 Mike Hampton 37.5 1.7 39.2 30.4 8.80 Mike Garcia 51.3 0.9 52.2 43.5 8.74 Jon Lester 60.9 16.4 77.3 68.7 8.63 Red Ruffing 33.8 4.3 38.1 29.6 8.53 Hal Schumacher 51.3 7.6 58.9 50.5 8.41 Jim Kaat 78.6 10.5 89.1 80.7 8.39 Tom Glavine 31.2 2.5 33.7 25.3 8.37 Allie Reynolds 60.1 0.6 60.7 52.5 8.17 Waite Hoyt 31.4 1.6 33.0 24.9 8.12 Ron Reed 47.1 4.2 51.3 43.3 7.99 Curt Simmons 39.8 4.0 43.8 35.8 7.96 Freddie Fitzsimmons 35.6 0.5 36.1 28.2 7.93 Lindy McDaniel 37.4 7.5 44.9 37.1 7.79 Bullet Joe Bush 49.5 6.4 55.9 48.1 7.76 Dolf Luque 28.2 8.0 36.2 28.7 7.55 Gary Peters 58.0 2.9 60.9 53.4 7.55 Billy Pierce 32.6 0.5 33.1 25.6 7.52 Rollie Fingers 34.4 6.3 40.7 33.3 7.43 Harvey Haddix 34.6 4.9 39.5 32.1 7.36 Eddie Lopat 52.8 (1.2) 51.6 44.3 7.32 Mel Harder 30.4 0.1 30.5 23.2 7.28 Sparky Lyle 29.4 7.7 37.1 30.0 7.10 Livan Hernandez 30.2 2.4 32.6 25.5 7.06 Dave McNally 48.8 9.7 58.5 51.5 7.01 Carl Mays 42.2 2.4 44.6 37.6 7.01 Charlie Root 50.7 3.4 54.1 47.2 6.94 Bob Shawkey 38.4 (1.0) 37.4 30.5 6.92 Sal Maglie 29.7 5.8 35.5 28.8 6.67 Art Nehf 61.3 (1.0) 60.3 53.7 6.62 Jerry Koosman 56.8 1.7 58.5 52.0 6.53 Larry Jackson 36.2 0.1 36.3 29.8 6.52 Kevin Millwood 50.3 9.0 59.3 52.9 6.42 Burleigh Grimes 96.2 0.2 96.4 90.0 6.37 Gaylord Perry 31.0 0.0 31.0 24.6 6.37 Dan Quisenberry 64.0 9.3 73.3 67.1 6.17 Don Drysdale 35.0 0.0 35.0 28.9 6.14 Lee Smith 27.3 3.1 30.4 24.3 6.06 Spud Chandler 82.9 9.3 92.2 86.2 6.05 Robin Roberts 31.5 0.0 31.5 25.5 6.00 Mike Flanagan 48.1 3.1 51.2 45.4 5.82 Larry French 36.4 4.5 40.9 35.1 5.79 Jerry Reuss 29.8 6.3 36.1 30.3 5.78 Joe Nuxhall 63.7 4.9 68.6 62.9 5.72 Juan Marichal 43.4 (0.4) 43.0 37.3 5.70 John Lackey 59.7 1.9 61.6 55.9 5.70 Eppa Rixey 47.9 11.2 59.1 53.5 5.62 Bucky Walters 34.7 (0.3) 34.4 28.8 5.60 A.J. Burnett 37.6 2.3 39.9 34.4 5.55 Howie Pollet 42.7 11.0 53.7 48.2 5.50 Bob Lemon 55.0 11.5 66.5 61.0 5.48 Early Wynn 65.7 0.1 65.8 60.3 5.46 Dazzy Vance 48.8 0.0 48.8 43.5 5.29 Jack Morris 32.7 11.1 43.8 38.7 5.10 Don Newcombe 66.7 0.7 67.4 62.3 5.08 CC Sabathia 33.0 0.0 33.0 28.0 5.00 Jose Quintana 52.1 2.8 54.9 50.0 4.89 Roy Oswalt 33.7 3.0 36.7 31.8 4.86 Johnny Antonelli 28.5 8.7 37.2 32.3 4.86 Vern Law 29.7 4.7 34.4 29.8 4.59 Johnny Podres 30.4 1.5 31.9 27.3 4.58 Ken Holtzman 31.7 0.7 32.4 27.9 4.50 George Mogridge 40.3 4.1 44.4 40.0 4.43 Tom Zachary 35.2 (1.1) 34.1 29.7 4.39 Preacher Roe 32.7 3.1 35.8 31.5 4.34 Andy Benes 31.4 0.6 32.0 27.7 4.31 Mel Parnell 29.5 1.4 30.9 26.6 4.30 Watty Clark 30.2 0.3 30.5 26.3 4.19 Joe Dobson 63.9 0.5 64.4 60.2 4.18 Andy Pettitte 44.3 0.0 44.3 40.3 4.05 David Price 45.2 0.0 45.2 41.2 4.04 Rich Gossage 36.1 2.2 38.3 34.3 4.03 Derek Lowe 31.5 (0.6) 30.9 26.9 4.02 Mike Cuellar 29.7 3.5 33.2 29.2 4.01 Doug Drabek 36.7 4.1 40.8 36.8 3.99 Earl Whitehill 47.4 6.5 53.9 49.9 3.98 Dizzy Trout 44.4 0.8 45.2 41.3 3.95 Gerrit Cole 62.0 4.6 66.6 62.8 3.78 Hal Newhouser 29.6 1.2 30.8 27.0 3.77 Stu Miller 60.7 2.4 63.1 59.4 3.67 Jim Bunning 26.2 6.8 33.0 29.3 3.66 Johnny Sain 31.3 0.0 31.3 27.7 3.59 Billy Wagner 42.3 3.1 45.4 41.9 3.53 John Candelaria 33.8 0.4 34.2 30.7 3.51 James Shields 37.6 1.8 39.4 36.0 3.44 Bob Rush 59.7 0.0 59.7 56.3 3.44 Mariano Rivera 48.9 2.4 51.3 48.0 3.29 Mickey Lolich 43.3 5.8 49.1 45.8 3.29 Lon Warneke 32.0 1.5 33.5 30.2 3.28 Max Lanier 39.7 2.8 42.5 39.2 3.28 Jake Peavy 32.2 6.4 38.6 35.3 3.27 Rick Rhoden 32.1 1.7 33.8 30.6 3.16 Willis Hudlin 23.0 7.8 30.8 27.7 3.13 Reb Russell 49.8 6.3 56.1 53.0 3.13 Dwight Gooden 67.4 5.2 72.6 69.5 3.12 Rick Reuschel 111.6 (1.8) 109.8 106.8 3.03 Lefty Grove 51.1 (0.3) 50.8 47.8 3.02 Bobo Newsom 40.3 2.1 42.4 39.4 3.00 Jon Matlack 70.6 1.4 72.0 69.0 3.00 Kevin Brown 42.5 1.0 43.5 40.5 3.00 Virgil Trucks 36.1 (3.2) 32.9 29.9 3.00 Dean Chance
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